♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IT'S OFFICIAL.

THIS HAS BEEN THE HOTTEST SUMMER ON RECORD.

AS AFRICAN LEADERS WRAP UP THEIR FIRST EVER CLIMATE SUMMIT, I ASK DAMILOLA OGUNBIYI, THE U.N. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR SUSTAINABLE ENERGY IF THEY MADE PROGRESS.

THEN -- >> YOU ARE AFRAID YOU COULD DIE?

>> OF COURSE, YES.

BECAUSE BY THE TIME I REACHED THE HOSPITAL, I COULDN'T EVEN MANAGE TO MOVE MY HEAD.

>> A SPECIAL REPORT ON RISING TEMPERATURES IN KENYA CREATING A MALARIA CRISIS.

AND -- >>> CHINA'S PRIME MINISTER WARNS OF A NEW COLD WAR WHAT WE CAN EXPECT, WITH VETERAN U.S.

DIPLOMAT RICHARD HAASS AND BOBBY GHOSH, FORMER EDITOR IN CHIEF AT ONE OF INDIA'S LARGEST PAPERS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> RIGHT NOW -- >> MY NAME IS BAR TON DEE THURSTON.

I'M A WRITER.

AND I LOVE BEING OUTSIDE.

>> A STEP INTO THE WILD.

WRITER AND COMEDIAN BARATUNDE THURSTON GUIDES HARI THROUGH HIS NEW SEASON OF "AMERICA OUTDOORS."

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THIS SUMMER HAS SEEN NATIONS ACROSS THE WORLD BATTLE WILDFIRES AND EXTREME TEMPERATURES.

NOW, IT HAS THE TUBE USE DISTINCTION OF BEING THE WORLD'S HOTTEST SUMMER ON RECORD.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE LATEST EUROPEAN UNION DATA.

JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THIS GRAPH THAT SHOWS THE SOARING TEMPERATURE OVER THE PAST 35 YEARS.

IN RESPONSE, THE U.N. CHIEF ANTONIO GUTERRES SAYS THIS SHOWS THAT, QUOTE, OUR CLIMATE IS IMPLOING FASTER THAN WE CAN COPE WITH EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS HITTING EVERY CORNER OF THE PLANET.

SURGE IN TEMPERATURES DEMAND A SURGE IN ACTION, HE SAID.

NOW, THIS COMES JUST AS THE FIRST EVER AFRICAN CLIMATE SUMMIT COMES TO A CLOSE.

HOSTED BY KENYA AND THE AFRICAN UNION.

THE EVENT CALLED FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A GLOBAL CARBON TAX SYSTEM, AND IN A JOINT DECLARATION, CALLED OUT THE WORLD'S RICHEST NATIONS, SAYING, AFRICA IS NOT HISTORICALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR GLOBAL WARMING, BUT BEARS THE BRUNT OF ITS AFFECT, IMPACTING LIVES, LIVELIHOODS, AND ECONOMIES.

SO, JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS FROM KENYA IS DAMILOLA OGUNBIYI, THE U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR SUSTAINABLE ENERGY FOR ALL, AND SHE'S CO-CHAIR OF U.N. ENERGY.

SO, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM NAIROBI.

I REALLY -- I GUESS I HAVE TO ASK YOU FIRST, WE'VE SEEN MANY, MANY TALKING SHOPS, YEAR AFTER YEAR, WE HAVE PLEDGES, WE HAVE THE CRISIS EXPLAINED AS THE U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL DID.

WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THIS SUMMIT?

HOW DID IT END?

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW TO START OFF WITH.

I THINK THE SUMMIT WAS A GREAT SUCCESS.

FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE HAD ALMOST 19 HEADS OF STATE IN AFRICA COMING TOGETHER TO EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT THEY WANT TO LEAD IN CLIMATE ACTION.

I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES, WE HAD OVER 60 MINISTERS SAYING THAT WE WANT TO GROW OUR ECONOMY IN A GREEN, SUSTAINABLE WAY.

SO, THE NARRATIVE HAS CHANGED FROM AFRICA JUST BEING A VICTIM OF CLIMATE CHANGE, WHICH IT IS, BUT AFRICA BEING THE LEADER IN CLIMATE ACTION, IN GREEN GROWTH, IN GREEN MANUFACTURING, USING CRITICAL MATERIALS FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

REALLY LEADING THE CHARGE.

AND THEN ASKING FOR THE GLOBAL AUDIENCE, WHICH INCLUDED THE U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL AND ALSO THE EU PRESIDENT TO COME ON THIS CHARGE WITH AFRICA AND HAVE AFRICA REALLY AS A SOLUTION PROVIDER.

>> SO, LOOK, LET ME GO THROUGH SOME OF THOSE POINTS THEN, BECAUSE YESTERDAY AT THE SUMMIT, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UPCOMING COP 28 SAID, WE'RE NOT DELIVERING THE RESULTS WE NEED, IN THE TIME THAT WE NEED THEM.

SO, HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU, BY ALL THE NUMBERS WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, WE CAN PUT UP THE EU GRAPH AGAIN, SHOWING THIS, YOU KNOW, SOARING RISE, PLUS, WHAT WE KNOW THIS NOW TO BE THE HOTTEST SUMMER ON RECORD.

>> I MEAN, I'M VERY CONCERNED.

THE 1.5 DEGREES HAS TO STAY ALIVE, THAN'S WHAT WE'RE PUSHING FOR, AND THAT'S WHAT WAS KEY ABOUT THIS SUMMIT, AS WELL.

THAT AFRICA ALSO HAS A ROLE TO PLAY.

BUT AFRICA IS THE LEAST EMITTING CONTINENT AND RECOGNIZES IT DOES HAVE SOLUTIONS TO BRING TO THE TABLE AND SHOULD ALSO DRIVE GLOBAL AMBITION.

BUT IT NEEDS FINANCING TO DO THIS, AND THIS FINANCING HAS TO BE AFFORDABLE AND HAS TO BE ACCESSIBLE.

AND THAT WAS THE WHOLE QUARTER ACTION, IN TERMS OF THE NEW ARCHITECTURE AND HOW WE HAVE TO REFORM THE DFIs AND THE MDBs TO ACTUALLY LEAD THIS CHARGE.

I THINK WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT ON CONTINENT IS THAT THIS ISN'T ONLY A CLIMATE ISSUE.

THIS IS A DEVELOPMENT ISSUE.

AND WE KNOW ON CONTINENT THAT WE HAVE TO DEVELOP IN A GREEN, SUSTAINABLE WAY.

SO, THIS IS REALLY A ONCE IN A LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT WE DO NOT WANT TO DEVELOP LIKE THE GLOBAL NORTH, WE DO NOT WANT TO DEVELOP ON FOSSIL FUELS.

WE WANT TO DEVELOP ON GREEN ENERGY, WE WANT GREEN JOBS FROM THE START.

BUT WE NEED THE WHOLE GLOBAL ARCHITECTURE TO SUPPORT US IN DOING THIS.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, YOU STARTED IN YOUR FIRST ANSWER TALKING ABOUT THE MANY, MANY AFRICAN NATIONS THAT DID TURN UP, BUT I WONDER WHAT YOU FEEL ABOUT THE VERY IMPORTANT AND RESOURCE RICH AFRICAN NATIONS THAT DIDN'T TURN UP.

SO, THESE WOULD BE SOUTH AFRICA, NIGERIA, EGYPT, AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, FOREST-RICH AND MINERAL-RICH RESOURCE-RICH CONGO.

NIGERIA, OIL PRODUCING COUNTRY, SAYS THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE THESE RESOURCES FOR ECONOMIC GROWTH AND ALL THAT ENERGY ACCESS.

SO, IF THESE IMPORTANT POWERHOUSES, WHICH THEY ARE IN AFRICA, DIDN'T SHOW UP, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT AFRICA'S COMMITMENT TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION, NOT JUST ENDLESSLY A VICTIM, AS PUT IT?

>> THE HEADS OF STATE MAY NOT HAVE TURNED UP, BUT THE MINISTERS WERE DEFINITELY IN THE ROOM.

AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT EVEN THE NIGERIAS AND THE SOUTH AFRICAS ARE LOOKING AT A PROPER ENERGY TRANSITION PLAN.

NIGERIA DOES HAVE AN ENERGY TRANSITION PLAN AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT HAS SAID 2060 TO A POINT OF NET ZERO.

THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE COUNTRY WITH AN ENERGY ACCESS ISSUE.

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS RECOGNIZED HERE IS THAT, AGAIN, IT'S A DEVELOPMENT ISSUE.

APART FROM TRANSITIONING, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT THERE'S STILL 600 MILLION PEOPLE ON THIS CONTINENT THAT HAVE NO ACCESS TO ELECTRICITY AT ALL.

AND OVER 900 MILLION PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO ACCESS TO CLEAN COOKING.

SO, IT'S IMPORTANT, WHILE WE TALK ABOUT OUR DEVELOPMENT, OUR TRANSITION, TO REALLY LEAVE NO ONE BEHIND.

>> AND SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS, THOSE WERE ALSO -- AND THEY ARE HISTORICALLY, YOU KNOW, VERY, VERY TRICKY TO NAVIGATE.

FOR INSTANCE, THE PRESIDENT OF KENYA SAID IT IS TIME TO HAVE A GLOBAL CONVERSATION ABOUT A CARBON TAX ON POLLUTERS.

THE U.S.

CLIMATE CZAR JOHN KERRY SAID THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS NOT YET EMBRACED ANY PARTICULAR CARBON PRICING MECHANISM, WHERE AS THE, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION SAYS SETTING A PRICE ON CARBON EMISSIONS IS ONE OF THE MOST EFFICIENT AND ONE OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE TOOLS IN OUR HANDS.

SO, WITH THOSE IMPORTANT CONSTITUENTS AND STAKEHOLDERS SEEMINGLY AT ODDS, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE -- AS THE LIKELIHOOD OF A CARBON TAX, FOR INSTANCE?

>> I MEAN, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE NATIONS THAT POLLUTE DO PAY FOR IT.

AND IT'S VERY, VERY PARAMOUNT THAT YOU ALSO NEED THIS FINANCING TO FINANCE DEVELOPMENT AND CLIMATE-FRIENDLY SOLUTIONS.

SO, I DON'T THINK THAT ANYBODY SHOULD BE LET OFF TO CONTINUE POLLUTING.

I THINK WE ALL KNOW WE HAVE OUR 1.5-DEGREE TARGET.

WE ALL KNOW WE HAVE A NET ZERO TARGET.

BUT IF YOU CONTINUOUSLY POLLUTE, I THINK THE G-20 COUNTRIES SHOULD BE HELD TO ACCOUNT.

AND WE SHOULD SEE HOW TRANSPARENTALLY WE CAN GET THIS DONE, TO ALLOW THESE FUNDS TO BE NEEDED, CRITICALLY NEEDED IN AFRICA, TO BE USED FOR DEVELOPMENT AND CLIMATE-FRIENDLY PROJECTS.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, WESTERN COUNTRIES AND OTHERS ANNOUNCED VARIOUS INVESTMENTS, YOU KNOW, TO AFRICA, DURING THIS SUMMIT.

BUT AGAIN, JOHN KERRY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A HUGE GAP, THERE'S A HUGE PROBLEM, BECAUSE SO MANY AFRICAN COUNTRIES ARE BESET BY DEBT.

THIS IS SOME OF WHAT HE SAID.

>> IF JUSTICE IS TO MEAN ANYTHING, IT CERTAINLY HAS TO MEAN THAT IF THERE'S GOING TO BE A TRANSITION, EVERYBODY HAS TO BE ABLE TO SHARE IN THE BENEFITS OF THAT TRANSITION.

RIGHT NOW, IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT A TRANSITION, A JUST TRANSITION, WHEN SOME PEOPLE, THERE'S NO TRANSITION AT ALL.

OR WHEN SOME PEOPLE, THERE IS ACUTE, UNFAIR DEBT THAT SWALLOWS AND DROWNS THE CHOICES WE HAVE TO MAKE.

>> HOW IMPORTANT WAS THAT STATEMENT?

>> WELL, WE'VE ALL BEEN AT THIS FOR QUITE A LONG TIME, ABOUT THE DEBT CRISIS, AND IT'S CRITICAL.

BECAUSE ALREADY, GOVERNMENTS ARE STRAINED.

THEY ARE ALREADY SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY ON ADAPTATION AND MITIGATION IN THEIR CURRENT BUDGETS.

NOW THAT THEY'RE PAYING SO MUCH FOR DEBT SERVICING, THEY JUST DON'T HAVE THE HEAD ROOM AND THE FISCAL SPACE TO ALSO PAY FOR CLIMATE.

AND THIS IS WHY THE PRESIDENT AND THE PRESIDENTS THAT WERE HERE TODAY WERE LIKE, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE DEBT CRISIS.

AND WE REALLY HAVE TO TREAT THIS AS A CRISIS.

IF IT'S A CRISIS, AND LEAVING NO ONE BEHIND AND CONNECTING PEOPLE TO ENERGY TO LIVE A DIGNIFIED LIFE IS TRULY A CRISIS IN THE WORLD, AND YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE ACCESS TO ENERGY HAS TO BE BY 2030.

WE HAVE TO TREAT IT AND THE FINANCING HAS TO BE AFFORDABLE, HAS TO BE ACCESSIBLE, AND WE HAVE TO FIND A SOLUTION TO THE CURRENT DEBT CRISIS THAT A LOT OF THESE COUNTRIES ARE SUFFERING FROM.

>> YEAH, AND YOU SAY, THIS HAS BEEN AN ISSUE THAT HAS PLAGUED THIS WHOLE, YOU KNOW, CONTINENT FOR SURE, FOR DECADES.

SO, PRESIDENT ACKNOWLEDGED AND SAID THAT $23 BILLION IN COMMITMENTS HAD BEEN MADE AT THIS SUMMIT.

BUT YOU KNOW THE CONTINENT HAS HEARD ALL THIS BEFORE.

IN 2009, AS PART OF COP 15, YOU KNOW, DEVELOPED COUNTRIES COMMITTED TO MOBILIZE $100 BILLION ANNUALLY IN CLIMATE FINANCE BY 2020.

HAVE THEY EVEN DONE THAT?

>> NO.

WE HAVE NOT ACHIEVED THE $100 BILLION THAT WE'VE BEEN ASKING FOR, AND WE'RE REALLY HOPING THAT COP 28 IS THE TURNING POINT.

BUT WHAT WE THOUGHT THIS SUMMIT, WHICH I THINK WAS EXCITING, IS THE NUMBER OF BILATERAL AGREEMENTS THAT WERE ALSO SOUGHT AFTER, AND THE UAE AS COP PRESIDENT DID PUT FORWARD A PLEDGE TO INSTALL 15 GIG GA WATTS OF CLEAN ENERGY INTO THE CONTINENT BY 2030.

THAT'S AN INVESTMENT OF $4 BILLION.

I WANT TO PUT IT IN CONTEXT.

TODAY, THE LATEST FIGURES SHOW IN SUB SAHAR RAN AFRICA, WE ONLY HAVE 81 GIGA WATTS OF ENERGY.

IF 15 GIGA WATTS OF CLEAN ENERGY COMES INTO THE SYSTEM, HOW IT WOULD TRANSFORM THE SYSTEM AND HOW IT WOULD LET AFRICA BE A FORWARD-THINKING VOICE.

WE'VE ALREADY SEEN LEADERSHIP IN THIS COUNTRY WITH KENYA, WITH HAVING OVER 90% OF ITS GRID WILL BE BEING SUPPLIED BY RENEWABLE ENERGY.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THEY CAN LEARN FROM AFRICAN COUNTRIES, AS WELL, NOT JUST SEE AFRICA AS A PLACE THAT THEY HAVE TO TEACH.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, TO THAT POINT, AFRICA, YOU KNOW, COMPRISES ABOUT 17% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION.

CONTRIBUTES ONLY 4% OF THE GLOBAL CARBON EMISSIONS.

YET, IT IS THE MOST VULNERABLE TO THE EFFECTS.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT?

APART FROM WHAT WE'VE JUST SPOKEN ABOUT THE PROMISES, AND SOME HAVE BEEN UNMET FOR YEARS.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT FOR AFRICA ON THIS ISSUE?

>> THE FIRST, YOU KNOW, IN MY LIFETIME, I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SEE AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS COMING TOGETHER IN SUCH A FORCE AND SAYING THAT THEY WANT TO COMMIT TO CLIMATE AMBITION.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, THEY WANT TO LEAD THE WORLD ON CLIMATE AMBITION, SO, I THINK WE NEED TO APPRECIATE THIS MOMENT THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

THE SECOND PART IS REALLY WITH THE YOUTH.

THE ENTREPRENEUR Y'ALL SPIRIT THAT'S GOING ON HERE, THE DIFFERENT KIND OF INNOVATIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING UP WITH FOR ENERGY ACCESS, FOR POWER SUPPLY, FOR AD GROWTH, FOR TECH BUSINESSES, FOR CLIMATE-FRIENDLY SOLUTIONS, IT'S JUST HAPPENING ORGANICALLY BECAUSE OF THE ENVIRONMENT THAT THEY'RE IN, WITHOUT A LOT OF FUNDING.

YOU CAN IMAGINE IF WE CREATED ALL THE FUNDING TO REALLY, REALLY GROW THIS INNOVATION AT SCALE, WE WOULD BE ABLE TO SOLVE OUR OWN ISSUES.

SO, THAT IS THE HOPE THAT I SEE FROM THIS SUMMER, THE YOUTH HAVE HAD A VERY, VERY BIG VOICE.

THE OTHER HOPE THAT I SEE IS JUST THE PENETRATION OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, REALLY EXCITING TECHNOLOGIES, GREEN MANUFACTURING, YOU KNOW, HERE WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE BUS MANUFACTURING HUB.

I WENT TO SEE SOME E-BIKE HUBS, YOU KNOW, IN GHANA, WE'RE SEEING IT IN NIGERIA, SO, PEOPLE ARE DOING THINGS ORGANICALLY TO -- AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS DRIVING IT, TO ACTUALLY GO AWAY FROM HARMFUL FOSSIL FUELS BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE FOR THEIR ENVIRONMENT, OR THEIR ECONOMIES.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

>>> AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, GLOBAL WARMING IS DISPROPORTIONATELY HITTING AREAS LIKE AFRICA, EVEN THOUGH THEIR CARBON OUTPUT IS NOWHERE NEAR THAT IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

IN KENYA, THE HOTTER TEMPERATURES INCREASE THE RISK OF DISEASES, LIKE OUTBREAKS OF MALARIA, AS LARRY IS NOW REPORTING.

>> Reporter: MARY AND BOTH HER SONS ARE IN HOSPITAL FOR MALARIA.

4-YEAR-OLD MARK SAYS HE'S DOING BETTER, AND SO IS HIS BIG BROTHER, JOSEPH WHO IS 12.

THEY KEEP GETTING MALARIA, MARY SAYS, AND SHE CAN BARELY AFFORD THE TREATMENT.

>> Translator: MALARIA HAS HIT MY FAMILY HARD.

IN A MONTH, I USED ABOUT $35 ON DRUGS AND THE FOLLOWING MONTH, ONE OF THEM FALLS SICK AGAIN.

>> Reporter: MARLY LIVES IN WESTERN KENYA, A HOT REGION, WHERE RESIDENTS HAVE AN ESPECIALLY HIGH RISK OF MALARIA.

MORE THAN 10,000 PEOPLE DIE EACH YEAR FROM THE DISEASE IN THIS EAST AFRICA NATION, BUT KIDS ARE ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE.

RESEARCHERS ARE COLLECTING MOSQUITOS HERE TO STUDY HOW THEY'RE EVOLVING.

RISING TEMPERATURES LET THEM GROW FASTER AND LIVE LONGER.

WHY DO YOU COME TO COLLECT MOSQUITOS HERE SPECIFICALLY?

>> THERE ARE MOSQUITO DENSITIES HERE VERY HIGH.

>> Reporter: THEY ARE TRACKING THE FULL LIFE CYCLE OF MOSQUITOS TO GET AHEAD OF THIS TINY INSECT BEFORE IT DOES EVEN MORE DAMAGE.

THIS IS A TYPICAL HIGH MALARIA ZONE.

IT'S HOT AND HUMID, SWAMPY.

THOSE ARE RICE-GROWING FIELDS BACK THERE.

A LOT OF WATER RIGHT NEXT TO WHERE PEOPLE LIVE.

BUT AS TEMPERATURES WARM ACROSS THE BOARD, SCIENTISTS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT MALARIA-CAUSING MOSQUITOS BREEDING IN NEW PLACES.

>> MOSQUITOS ARE THE DEADLIEST ANIMALS.

>> Reporter: THIS WOMAN HAS MADE IT HER LIFE'S WORK TO NEUTRALIZE THE INSECT THAT CAUSES MALARIA, AFTER HER BROTHER DIED OF THE DISEASE.

HER TEAM OF SCIENTISTS AT KENYA'S LARGEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE IS STUDYING MOSQUITO SAMPLES FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY TO GUIDE KENYA'S RESPONSE TO MALARIA AND HOW TO BEAT IT.

ARE WE ANY CLOSER TO ERADICATING MALARIA?

>> WE WERE, BUT WITH THE CHANGE OF NOW CLIMATE, WE'RE SEEING MORE MOSQUITOS THAN BEFORE.

WE'RE SEEING NEW SPECIES.

WE ARE SEEING, IT'S GOING TO PLACES WHERE WE DIDN'T EXPECT BEFORE.

AND WE ARE TAKEN BACK TO ZERO.

>> Reporter: CLIMATE CHANGE IS HELPING MOSQUITOS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRANSMITTING MALARIA REACH COLDER PARTS OF THE CONTINENT.

SCIENTISTS AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY MEDICAL UNIVERSITY FOUND DRAWING ON DATA GOING BACK 120 YEARS.

BUT HEAT IS ALSO HELPING MOSQUITOS LIVE LONGER AND TO BECOME INFECTIOUS SOONER, WORRYING PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT A RESURGENCE OF MALARIA IN YOUR WORK ACROSS THE CONTINENT?

>> WE ARE CONCERNED THAT AREAS THAT HAD LIMITED MALARIA ARE NOW HAVING MALARIA, AND WE ARE SEEING THAT ACTUALLY THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM IS NOT PREPARED FOR THIS RESURGENCE.

>> Reporter: MALARIA IS HAVING DEVASTATING AFFECTS ON MORE PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM SERIOUS CASES.

THIS MAN SAYS HE WAS SICK FOR NEARLY THREE MONTHS.

YOUR MALARIA WAS VERY SERIOUS.

>> VERY.

VERY SERIOUS.

>> Reporter: WERE YOU AFRAID YOU COULD DIE?

>> OF COURSE, YES.

BECAUSE BY THE TIME I REACHED THE HOSPITAL, I COULDN'T EVEN MANAGE TO MOVE MY HEAD.

>> Reporter: 96% OF PEOPLE WHO DIE FROM MALARIA ARE IN AFRICA.

THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION SAYS.

AS THE CONTINENT WARMS FASTER THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD, MALARIA PERSISTS, AND EXPERTS WARN IT RISKS SPREADING INTO A GLOBAL THREAT.

>> WHAT IS HAPPENING IN AFRICA WILL SEE ITSELF ELSEWHERE, BECAUSE WITH A WARMING CLIMATE, WITH A CHANGING TEMPERATURE, MALARIA, MOSQUITOS ARE MIGRATING TO OTHER AREAS THAT ARE CONDUCIVE FOR THEM.

MALARIA WILL DISPLACE PEOPLE.

THEY WILL MIGRATE TO OTHER AREAS.

WITHIN THE CONTINENT AND OUT OF THE CONTINENT.

>>.

>> LARRY REPORTING ON THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE, NOT JUST ON INDIVIDUALS, BUT ON GLOBAL HEALTH, AS WELL.

>>> NOW, FROM THE RISING HEAT, TO FEARS OF A FROZEN CONFLICT.

THE CHINESE PREMIER HAS WARNED AGAINST A NEW COLD WAR AT THE ASEAN SUMMIT IN INDONESIA.

CALLING ON COUNTRIES NOT TO TAKE SIDES, AND TO AVOID, QUOTE, BLOC CONFRONTATION.

CHINA'S PRESIDENT XI JINPING WILL NOT JOIN FELLOW WORLD LEADERS AT THE G-20 MEETING IN INDIA THIS WEEKEND, WHERE THEY'LL BE DISCUSSING GLOBAL ISSUES LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE AND RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT PUTIN IS ALSO SKIPPING THE EVENT.

JOINING ME NOW IS VETERAN U.S.

DIPLOMAT AND PRESIDENT EMERITUS OF THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, RICHARD HAASS.

ALSO, BOBBY GHOSH, COLUMNIST FOR "BLOOMBERG."

WELCOME BOTH TO THE PROBLEM.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU, RICHARD HAASS, AS AN AMERICAN DIPLOMAT WHAT YOU MAKE OF A VERY CLEAR ATTEMPT BY THE WEST, NOTABLY PRESIDENT BIDEN, HOSTING PRIME MINISTER MODI AT THE WHITE HOUSE, THEN THE FRENCH PRESIDENT HOSTING PRIME MINISTER MODI ON THE BASTILLE DAY, HAVING HIM THERE, WHERE WE KNOW THERE'S HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES, THERE'S, YOU KNOW, NATIONALIST ISSUES, THERE'S DEMOCRAT ISSUES.

WHAT'S GOING ON IN THAT RELATIONSHIP?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, WHAT I THINK IS GOING ON IS, OPTIMISM ABOUT THE UPSIDE OF ECONOMIC INTERACTION WITH INDIA.

THE WORLD'S MOST POPULOUS COUNTRY, GROWING AT A RAPID RATE.

I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY FIRST.

SECOND OF ALL, INDIA IS A STRATEGIC COUNTERWEIGHT OF SORTS TO -- TO CHINA, AND THAT IS A PART OF ALSO PEOPLE'S THINKING IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU HAVE THE ADDED ASPECT OF DOMESTIC POLITICS.

THE INDIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY IS INCREASINGLY POLITICALLY ACTIVE.

PER CAPITA, ARGUABLY THE WEALTHIEST COMMUNITY IN THE -- IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO, I THINK THERE'S LOTS OF REASONS, FROM FOREIGN POLICY TO DOMESTIC POLITICS, WHICH ARGUE FOR INDIA BEING FRONT AND CENTER.

>> I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT, BECAUSE THE QUESTION IS, HOW DOES IT SORT OF AMPLIFY PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DEMOCRACY AGENDA AROUND THE WORLD, BUT AS AN EXAMPLE, BOBBY, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT'S BEEN CAUSING A LITTLE BIT OF A BROUHAHA, BECAUSE IT'S SORT OF EXEMPLARY OF A CERTAIN TENDENCY, THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S INVEIGHATION TO THE DINNER FOR THE SUMMIT WAS IDENTIFIED NOT AS INDIA, BUT AS BAHRAT, UNUSUAL TO USE IT LIKE THAT.

IS THAT A DELIBERATE SIGNAL?

>> WELL, YES, IT ISES PART OF PRIME MINISTER MODI AND HIS PARTY'S NATIONALIST, HINDU NATIONALIST AGENDA.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A DISTRACTION FROM OTHER PROBLEMS THAT THE COUNTRY IS FACING, INCLUDING QUITE SERIOUS LEVELS OF POVERTY, DESPITE THE WEALTH THAT IS ON SHOW DURING THIS CONFERENCE.

AND ALSO SORT OF PROGRAMS AGAINST MINORITIES WITHIN INDIA.

SO, USING THAT NAME IS A WAY TO DISTRACT ATTENTION.

IT IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE RULING PARTY, OF COURSE, THERE'S AN ECHO IN THE NAME.

IT IS AN HISTORICAL NAME.

BUT IT'S NOT IN COMMON USE INTERNATIONALLY, AND FRANKLY EVEN WITHIN INDIA.

SO, THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF SMOKE AND MIRRORS, LOOK HERE, NOT THERE.

THAT'S WHAT IS BEING ATTEMPTED.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, AGAIN, BECAUSE IT JUST SAYS -- I THINK THE WHOLE THING THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PUTS INTO STARK FOCUS THE -- THE MAYBE COMPETING IDEALS OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY VERSUS REAL POLITIC, AS RICHARD HAASS, YOU'VE LAID OUT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN IS MOSTLY HOPING TO GET OUT OF THIS SUMMIT, YOU KNOW, AND OUT OF THE RELATIONSHIP WITH INDIA?

AT THIS TIME?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY, AND BOBBY, FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE WITH ME, I WOULD HOPE THE PRESIDENT'S GOALS ARE MODEST.

THE UNITED STATES HAS A HISTORY, I THINK, OF ERRING ON THE UPSIDE OF WHAT COULD BE -- WHAT COULD BE EXPECTED FROM INDIA.

BILATERALLY, HE'S HOPING FOR CONTINUED TRADE AND INVESTMENT TIES TO GROW.

INDIA'S QUITE PROTECTIONIST IN MANY WAYS.

I THINK HE WOULD LOVE TO SEE INDIA DISTANCE ITSELF FROM RUSSIA.

UNFORTUNATELY, YAND'S BEEN A LARGE PURCHASER OF RUSSIAN ENERGY.

I DON'T SEE THAT ENDING.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO SIGNAL SOMETHING TO CHINA BY BEING CLOSE TO -- TO MR. MODI.

BUT CHRISTIANE, I THINK YOUR LARGER POINT IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING, THE IDEA OF A DEMOCRACY-FIRST AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY HAS GONE BY THE WAYSIDE, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INDIA, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA, WE CAN GO AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THE PRIME SILL OF STRATEGIC CONSIDERATIONS AND ECONOMIC CONSIDERATIONS, RATHER THAN IDEOLOGICAL CONSIDERATIONS.

>> AND YET, YOU COULD SAY THAT THE WAR IN UKRAINE, AND AMERICA'S STRONG DEFENSE OF THAT, DOES GO TO THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY AND THE INTERNATIONAL RULES-BASED ORDER.

I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO YOU ON THAT, RICHARD HAASS, BUT BOBBY GHOSH, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT DOES MODI WANT TO GET OUT OF THIS?

I MEAN, CLEARLY, HE WANTS TO BE THE VOICE OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH, HE WANTS TO BE, POTENTIALLY, I'M SPECULATING, YOU TELL ME, THE CRUCIAL FULCRUM BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA AT THIS VERY DIFFICULT MOMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA.

IS THAT RIGHT?

AND WHY DO YOU THINK THEN XI JINPING ISN'T COMING?

>> WELL, HE WOULD LIKE US TO THINK OF HIM IN -- IN THOSE TERMS, AS A VOICE FOR THE GLOBAL SOUTH, AS A PLAYER, AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS A SEAT AT THE HIGH TABLE.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT HIS ACTIONS, THEY DON'T ACTUALLY MATCH THE RHETORIC.

AS A -- A VOICE OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH, INDIA ISN'T REALLY PUTTING FORWARD ANY INTERESTING NEW PROPOSALS THAT REPRESENT THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

FOR THE MOST PART, WHAT MODI HAS DONE IS USED THE G-20 SUMMIT FOR DOMESTIC POLITICAL PROPAGANDA OR PUBLICITY PURPOSES.

NOW, TO SOME DEGREE, MANY LEADERS HAVE DONE THAT, BUT IN THIS CASE, IT'S QUITE STRIKING, THE GAP BETWEEN THE RHETORIC AND THE REALITY, AND I THINK HE WOULD BE PERFECTLY HAPPY, IF EVERYBODY CAME AWAY FROM THE SUMMIT SAYING, OH, LOOK, INDIA IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT PLAYER, WITHOUT ACTUALLY RECKONING WITH ANY IDEAS THAT ARE BEING PROPOSED BY DELHI.

UNFORTUNATELY FOR HIM, XI JINPING HAS SORT OF UNDERMINED THAT IMAGE BY REFUSING TO EVEN TURN UP.

IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO CLAIM THAT YOU ARE A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH AND THAT YOU HAVE A SEAT AT THE HIGH TABLE, IF ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT PEOPLE OFF THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER JUST SIMPLY REFUSES TO TURN UP.

SO, I THINK MODI WOULD BE -- MODI'S OWN EXPECTATIONS FROM THIS SUMMIT AND FROM INDIA'S PRESIDENCY OF THE G-20 ARE FAIRLY LIMITED, MUCH TO DO WITH -- WITH PROPAGANDA AND PUBLICITY, BUT NOT A LOT TO DO WITH ACTUAL ACTIONS ON THE GROUND.

>> DO YOU AGREE, RICHARD HAASS, AND WHY DO YOU THINK XI JINPING IS NOT GOING TO BE THERE?

>> THAT IS THE FAVORITE TOPIC OF CONVERSATION IN WHAT PASSES FOR FOREIGN POLICY CIRCLES.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO THINK IT WAS SOMETHING OF A SIGNAL TO INDIA, POSSIBLY OVER THE BORDER.

BUT CHRISTIANE, THE FAR MORE INTERESTING SPECULATION IS THAT IT HAS TO DO WITH THINGS DOMESTIC.

YOU JUST HAD THE ANNUAL CHINESE RETREAT OF THE LEADERSHIP, SPECULATION HAS EMERGED OF A DEGREE OF UNHAPPINESS WITH BOTH THE CONCENTRATION OF POWER IN THE HANDS OF XI JINPING.

THERE'S BEEN A MAJOR MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT WAS THE ESTABLISHED OR TRADITION OF COLLECTIVE LEADERSHIP IN CHINA.

PLUS, AS YOU SEE EVERY DAY, THERE'S ARTICLE AFTER ARTICLE ABOUT CHINA'S ECONOMIC WOES.

CHINA FACES REAL DOMESTIC CHALLENGES.

FOR GREATER THAN ANY CHALLENGES COMING FROM US OR CHALLENGES THEY'RE CREATING FOR THEMSELVES BY THEIR ALLOWING POLITICS TO DOMINATE ECONOMIC POLICY.

SO, A GROWING NUMBER OF EXPERTS THINK THAT XI JINPING IS STAYING AT HOME, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, THAT'S WHERE THE PRIORITY IS, NOT IN INDIA FOR HIM.

>> BOBBY GHOSH, YOU'RE SHAKING YOUR HEAD.

>> WELL, EVERYTHING RICHARD SAID IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, BUT THE ONE AREA WHERE XI JINPING HAS BEEN ABLE TO PROJECT SOME KIND OF SUCCESS FOR HIS DOMESTIC AUDIENCE TO THE EXTENT THAT MATTERS IS IN THE INTERNATIONAL SPHERE.

UNDER HIS PRESIDENCY, CHINA'S RISEN JUST AS MODI WOULD LIKE TO ACHIEVE, TO THE SORT OF HIGH TABLE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, SO, I THINK THE TEMPTATION FOR XI JINPING TO GO OUT INTO DELHI FOR A DAY OR TWO WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE GREAT.

AND THE REWARDS FOR DOING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN QUITE GREAT.

I -- I'M NOT ENTIRELY CONVINCED THAT HE -- HE SKIPPED THAT CHANCE, THAT OPPORTUNITY FOR THE SORT OF FAVORABLE PHOTO OP, BECAUSE OF DOMESTIC POLITICS.

I THINK HE'S ALSO SENDING A VERY STRONG SIGNAL TO NARENDRA MODI, TO INDIA, AS WELL AS TO BIDEN, SAYING, IF YOU GUYS WANT TO HAVE THIS SORT OF BROMANCE, THAT'S OKAY, I DON'T HAVE TO TURN UP AND WATCH IT IN CLOSE QUARTERS.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

AND A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT YOU BOTH SAY OVERLAPS, AND THEN THERE'S DIFFERENCES, BUT RICHARD HAASS, I SPOKE YESTERDAY ON THE PROGRAM TO THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN, RAHM EMANUEL, AND A LOT OF IT WAS ABOUT THE CHINA RELATIONSHIP AND MANAGING THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION, AND HE WAS SAYING THAT ACTUALLY, AND TO YOUR POINT ABOUT ALL THESE -- ALL THIS DATA SHOWING A WEAKER ECONOMY AND HIGH YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF, THAT ACTUALLY CHINA APPEARS TO BE DECLINING, THE U.S. APPEARS TO BE RISING, THE U.S. HAS A LOT OF ALIES IN THE REGION THAT WANT TO HELP DETER.

SO, MY QUESTION KEEPS ON BEING, SO, WHAT DO YOU DO?

HOW DOES THE U.S.

ENGAGE WITH CHINA THAT IS VIGILANT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE U.S. CARES ABOUT, BUT ALSO, DOESN'T HURDLE INTO A MISGUIDED WAR?

>> WELL, THE UNITED STATES IS TRYING TO REACH OUT TO CHINA.

WE'VE SENT ANY NUMBER OF CABINET MEMBERS THERE THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

CHINESE HAVE PUSHED BACK IN SOME WAY, THEY HAVEN'T RECIPROCATED BY SENDING PEOPLE HERE.

IT'S ALMOST AS IF THEY'RE SAYING, DIPLOMACY IS A FAVOUR, YOU HAVEN'T EARNED IT.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE NARROW IN OUR ECONOMIC SANCTIONS, OR LIMITS.

WE SHOULD BE OPEN TO A TRADING AND INVESTMENT RELATIONSHIP, SO LONG AS IT DOESN'T LEAK OVER INTO MILITARILY SIGNIFICANT TECHNOLOGY.

OUR GOAL SHOULD NOT BE TO COMMIT ECONOMIC WARFARE AGAINST CHINA TO STOP ITS RISE.

WE SHOULD BE WILLING, AGAIN, TO TRADE AN INVEST, SO LONG AS IT DOESN'T INVOLVE SENSITIVE TECHNOLOGY.

WE SHOULD TRY TO AVOID A CRISIS OVER TAIWAN.

SOMETIMES IN FOREIGN POLICY, CHRISTIANE, IT'S NOT WHAT YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH TOGETHER, IT'S WHAT YOU CAN AVOID.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA HAVE REACHED AT THIS MOMENT IN THEIR HISTORICAL EVOLUTION.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME TOGETHER TO DEAL WITH CLIMATE CHANGE ANYMORE THAN THEY DEALT WITH THE PANDEMIC.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE TAIWAN PROBLEM, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

THE REAL QUESTION IS, CAN WE GET THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA NOT TO HAVE A CRISIS OVER TAIWAN, NOT TO GET CHINA TO PROVIDE ARMS TO -- TO RUSSIA, TO CONTINUE TO TRADE, RATHER THAN HAVE A TOTAL DECOUPLING OF THE RELATIONSHIP.

I THINK A MODEST U.S./CHINA AGENDA IS POSSIBLE.

IT'S CERTAINLY DESIRABLE, BUT THAT'S THE DIPLOMATIC CHALLENGE TO BOTH COUNTRIES.

>> AND COMING BACK TO CHINA IN A MOTION, BUT ON MODI AGAIN, BOBBY GHOSH, RICHARD JUST BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, LEADERSHIP ON CLIMATE, LEADERSHIP ON OTHER ISSUES.

INDIA HAS CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, WANTED TO DO THAT AND THERE'S DEEP SKEPTICISM AS TO WHETHER IT WILL BE A LEADER ON CLIMATE, BUT MOST ESPECIALLY WE JUST HEAR FROM THE EU OFFICIAL, AT LEAST ONE HAS TOLD THE PRESS THAT THE DRAFT G-2 DECLARATION ON UKRAINE PRESENTED BY INDIA SIMPLY IS NOT GOING FAR ENOUGH.

AND I WONDER WHETHER THAT'S A BLOT ON THE COPY BOOK, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE STOOD MODI IN GOOD STEAD ON THE PR STAGE, AND IF HE DOESN'T ACCOMPLISH IT, WHAT HAPPENS?

>> WELL, IT WILL CERTAINLY BE VERY AWKWARD, BECAUSE AT THE LAST G-20 SUMMIT, WHICH WAS IN INDONESIA, DESPITE WIDE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE VARIOUS PARTICIPANTS, THEY WERE ABLE TO COME UP WITH A COMMUNIQUE.

WE CAN DEBATE HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS, BUT THERE IS A SYMBOLIC SUBSTANCE TO THEM.

AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO COME TO ANY KIND OF A CONSENSUS ON UKRAINE TO PUT IN THAT COMMUNIQUE.

IN DIPLOMATIC TERMS, RICHARD HAS GREATER EXPERIENCE IN THIS THAN I DO, BUT IN DIPLOMATIC TERMS, IT'S NOT SO MUCH A BLOT ON THE COPY BOOK AS AN AWKWARD MOMENT, PARTICULARLY -- IF YOU ARE PROJECTING YOURSELF AS A GLOBAL POWER THAT HAS THE ABILITY TO COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS FOR THE WORLD, IF YOU CAN'T EVEN ORGANIZE A COMMUNIQUE AT THE END OF A HIGH PROFILE CONFERENCE IN YOUR CAPITAL CITY, IT'S NOT A GOOD LOOK.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE RICHARD HAASS, YOU KNOW, YOU WERE LAST SPRING PART OF A GROUP THAT MET WITH THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER LAVROV IN NEW YORK.

AND THEN WHEN THE NEWS BROKE, YOU GOT, YOU KNOW, YOU GOT A LITTLE BIT OF A BOLLICING.

IN RESPONSE, YOU MADE IT CLEAR YOU A POSE WHAT YOU CALL RUSSIA'S UNJUSTIFIED WAR OF CHOICE, BUT YOU SAID, AND THIS IS CRUCIAL, I'M SKEPTICAL THAT UKRAINE WILL BE ABLE TO LIBERATE ALL OF ITS TERRITORY ANY TIME SOON USING MILITARY FORCE, AND WORRY THAT AN OPEN-ENDED WAR WILL LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE IN RUINS.

DO YOU STILL MAINTAIN THAT POSITION?

AND ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THAT SORT OF UNDERCUTS WHAT YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT IS BASICALLY SAYING PUBLICLY?

>> I DON'T SEE THAT IT UNDERCUTS.

I'D LOVE TO BE PROVEN WRONG.

I WOULD LOVE FOR UKRAINE, WITH AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN HELP, TO BE ABLE TO LIBERATE ITS TERRITORY.

I'M SKEPTICAL IT WILL BE ABLE TO.

SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE BALANCE OF FORCES, THE NATURE OF RUSSIA DEFENSIVE POSITIONS, BUT AGAIN, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT HOW THIS PLAYS OUT.

AND IF I'M RIGHT, AND IF IT TURNS OUT UKRAINE CANNOT LIBERATE ITS LAND MILITARILY, THEN I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT AN ALTERNATIVE FOREIGN POLICY.

NOT WHERE IT GIVES UP ITS CLAIMS, LET ME BE CLEAR.

I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD, BUT WHERE IT PERHAPS TURNS TO OTHER INSTRUMENTS, POLITICALLY, ECONOMICALLY, AND IT SETTLES FOR SOMETHING AS AN INTERIM ARRANGEMENT, WHICH STOPS THE WAR, WHERE UKRAINE CAN REBUILD ITS ECONOMY AND ITS SOCIETY WITHOUT GIVING UP ITS LONG-TERM GOALS.

I DON'T THINK WE'RE AT THAT POINT.

UKRAINE IS NOT YET THERE, IS NOT WILLING TO MAKE SUCH A COMPROMISE.

RUSSIA'S NOT THERE.

PUTIN IS PER SWALDED THAT TIME IS HIS FRIEND, BUT MY PREDICTION IS, THE DAY IS LIKELY TO COME, NOT DEFINITELY, BUT LIKELY TO COME, WHEN BOTH SIDES FOR VARIOUS REASONS HAVE TO -- HAVE TO LOOK CLOSELY AT A SECOND-BEST OUTCOME FOR THIS, WITHOUT SACRIFICING THEIR LONG-TERM GOALS.

AND I THINK THAT'S -- I YOU THIS IT'S QUITE POSSIBLE WE'LL GET TO THAT POINT, IF NOT AT THE END OF THIS FIGHTING SEASON, PERHAPS JUST OVER A YEAR FROM NOW.

>> INTERESTING, I JUST CAME BACK FROM UKRAINE AND DISCOVERED THAT THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS KIND OF GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN, BUT THEY STILL DON'T HAVE THE BIG WEAPONS THAT THEY SHOULD NEED FOR THIS, AS YOU CORRECTLY SAY, PUNCHING THROUGH THESE VERY SOPHISTICATED AND LETHAL RUSSIAN DEFENSES.

SO, ON THE OTHER HAND, THEN, WHAT DO YOU MAKE, BOBBY GHOSH, OF THE U.S.

PUBLICLY REVEALING INTELLIGENCE SUGGESTING THAT THERE MAY BE AN ARMS DEAL AFOOT BETWEEN RUSSIA AND NORTH KOREA, AND THAT ANY TIME SOON, THE NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR COULD BE MEETING WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN?

>> WELL, I SUPPOSE IT'S NOT THAT SURPRISING.

PUTIN DOESN'T HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER PLACES TO TURN TO GET REPLENISHMENT FOR HIS ARMAMENTS.

THE NORTH KOREANS HAVE SOME CAPACITY, LIMITED CAPACITY, TO MAKE ARMS, AND IT DOESN'T HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF MARKETS TO WHICH TO SELL THOSE ARMS.

SO, THIS IS A MARRIAGE OF CONVENIENCE.

AND AS FAR AS THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MAKING IT WIDELY KNOWN, COULDN'T HURT.

IT SORT OF SHOWS THE CORNER INTO WHICH PUTIN HAS BEEN DRIVEN.

IT SUGGESTS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF DESPERATION, IF YOU ARE REDUCED TO BUYING ARMS FROM NORTH KOREA, THEN -- IT'S HARD FOR YOU TO ARGUE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT THE WAR IS GOING SWIMMINGLY.

>> UH-HUH.

>> YEAH.

FINALLY, RICHARD HAASS, BACK TO INDIA.

WHAT IS -- WHAT DO YOU SEE IS THE FUTURE?

LITERALLY CRYSTAL BALLING.

THIS IS A VERY POWERFUL PRIME MINISTER, VERY NATIONALIST, YOU KNOW, WITH A RELIGIOUS BEND, HE'S OBVIOUSLY GOT A HUGE AMOUNT OF OPPOSITION FROM PEOPLE WHO THINK THE PRESS SHOULD BE FREER AND MANIOR ASPECTS OF POLITICS THERE SHOULD BE FREER, EVEN THE OPPOSITION PARTIES THERE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE INDIA, THE WORLD'S MOST POPULOUS DEMOCRACY, GOING IN THE NEXT ONE, TWO, THREE YEARS?

>> IT IS A COMPLICATED AND CONTROVERSIAL QUESTION AND I'LL NOW ADD TO IT.

I THINK INDIA WILL DO JUST FINE ECONOMICALLY OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS.

I THINK IT WILL CONTINUE TO UNDERPERFORM OR DISAPPOINT WHEN IT COMES TO STRATEGICALLY ASSOCIATING WITH THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST.

INDIA HAS A TRADITION OF HEDGING.

I DON'T SEE THAT CHANGING.

AND I THINK YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE BIGGEST QUESTION MARK, CHRISTIANE, WHICH IS THE NATURE OF INDIAN SOCIETY.

ITS POLITICS.

AND WHETHER THE LEGACY OF MR. MODI IS ULTIMATELY ONE OF REDUCING THE DEMOCRATIC SPACE.

AND THEN, THE QUESTION IS, WHAT DOES HE HAND OFF TO HIS SUCCESSORS?

DOES INDIA BECOME MORE OF A HINDU SOCIETY, RATHER THAN A SECULAR DEMOCRACY?

IF SO, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR DOMESTIC POLITICAL STABILITY?

YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS IN THAT COUNTRY.

WHAT WILL INDIA BE AND MEAN FOR THEM?

>> HUGE QUESTIONS.

HUGE QUESTIONS.

RICHARD HAASS, BOBBY GHOSH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME AND ANSWERING A LOT OF THOSE QUESTIONS.

>>> NOW, FOR A LITTLE ADVENTURE.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS ENCOURAGING EVERYONE TO RECONNECT WITH NATURE.

AUTHOR AND ACTIVIST BARATUNDE THURSTON IS BACK WITH A NEW SEASON OF "AMERICA OUTDOORS."

EXPLORING HOW WE INTERACT WITH THE WORLD AROUND US.

AND HE JOINS HARI TO DISCUSS HIS TRAVELS AND THE LESSONS HE'S LEARNING.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

BARATUNDE THURSTON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THIS IS THE SECOND SEASON OF YOUR PROGRAM.

WHAT IS "AMERICA OUTDOORS," WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO WITH IT THAT, SAY, HASN'T BEEN DONE?

>> "AMERICA OUTDOORS" IS A SHOW THAT EXPLORES OUR DEEP CONNECTION TO NATURE.

WE SPEND TIME WITH A REALLY DIVERSE ARRAY OF AMERICANS WHO WORK IN THE OUTDOORS, WHO PLAY IN THE OUTDOORS, WHO INTERACT AND HAVE A DEEP RELATIONSHIP WITH NATURE AND HELPS TELL THE STORY OF WHO WE ARE THROUGH THE PLACES WE'RE CONNECTED TO.

MY NAME IS BARATUNDE THURSTON.

I'M A WRITER, ACTIVIST, SOMETIMES COMEDIAN.

AND I'M ALL ABOUT TELLING A BETTER STORY OF US.

WOW!

THIS COUNTRY IS WILD.

AND ITS NATURAL LANDSCAPES ARE AS DIVERSE AS ITS PEOPLE.

>> YOU START THIS SEASON, I DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL I WAS WATCHING A PREVIEW OF THE PROGRAM, THAT -- WHAT IS IT, THE LONGEST-RUNNING SORT OF -- YOU HAD A PHRASE -- >> IT'S A WILD RIVER.

>> YEAH.

>> SOMETIMES THESE RIVERS GET WILD, HARI, AND WE GOT TO KEEP THEM THAT WAY.

WILD MEANS IT'S NOT DAMMED.

ITS COURSE HASN'T BEEN ALTERED.

SO, IT IS A TRULY OLD SCHOOL, WILD RIVER, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DEPEND ON IT.

A LOT OF FRESH WATER FOR 10 MILLION OR SO PEOPLE.

THE WAY IT STARTS UP IN THE SWAMP IN SOUTHEAST GEORGIA.

THERE'S PEOPLE WORKING TO PROTECT THAT SWAMP.

AND NOT DRAIN IT, TO KEEP ALL THE CARBON THAT ITS SEQUESTERS NATURALLY, IN PLACE, AS OPPOSED TO IN OUR ATMOSPHERE WHERE, YOU KNOW, IT WARMS THINGS UP.

THE RIVER CONNECTED AND GUIDED OUR EPISODE.

WE FLOWED DOWN RIVER FROM HEAD TO MOUTH IN THE LANGUAGE OF THAT GEOGRAPHY, AND STARTING OFF WITH REVEREND NIXON AND BEING PART OF A CHURCH SERVICE IN WHAT IS PROBABLY THE GREATEST CHURCH, RIGHT, IS EARTH, VERY SPIRITUAL, VERY POWERFUL PLACE, BUT HE FELT CALLED TO SAFEGUARD HIS HOME, TO SAFEGUARD THE NATURAL RESOURCE, AND TO SAFEGUARD, IN HIS WORDS, GOD'S CREATION.

AND SO, YOU HAVE THIS OVERLAP OF RELIGIOUS CONNECTION AND CLIMATE ACTION, WHICH IS NOT THE COMMON IMAGE OF EITHER COMMUNITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE DOING SCIENCE ON THE RIVER, YOU HAVE PEOPLE ON THE LAND, YOU HAVE FOLKS THAT ARE JUST PLAYING AND LOVING WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN NORTH FLORIDA AND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE PART OF THIS RIVER, AND TO SEE THIS RIVER -- >> YEAH.

YOU GET TO GO TO A STATE THAT SORT OF MAKES YOU NOW, WHAT, YOU'VE HIT ALL 48, AFTER YOU'VE HIT ARKANSAS.

>> YEAH, ARKANSAS, THIS SEASON, THAT WAS -- I'VE BEEN EVERYWHERE IN THE LOWER 48, EXCEPT FOR ARKANSAS, AND I CAN COMPLETE THE SET.

>> SO, WHAT WAS INTRIGUING TO YOU ABOUT THE KINDS OF -- THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF EXPERIENCES THAT YOU HAD?

BECAUSE IN ONE PART OF THAT EPISODE, YOU WERE OUT THERE SKEET SHOOTING.

TALK ABOUT HOW YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GUNS HAS BEEN VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE PEOPLE YOU ARE SKEET SHOOTING WITH.

>> IF I'M GOING TO EXPERIENCE THE OUTDOOR CULTURE IN ARKANSAS, I SHOULD EXPERIENCE THE GUN CULTURE, TOO.

BUT I ADMIT, THAT MAKES ME UNEASY.

GUNS ARE A BIG PART OF OUTDOOR LIFE IN AMERICA, THERE'S NO DENYING IT, BUT THEY'RE NOT A BIG PART OF MY LIFE.

SO, I'M GOING TO NEED TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND.

I GREW UP IN THE '80s IN WASHINGTON, D.C., WHEN IT WASN'T JUST THE NATION'S CAPITAL, IT WAS THE NATION'S MURDER CAPITAL.

MY FATHER WAS A VICTIM OF ONE OF THOSE GUN MURDERS.

AND SO, I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF LOVE INTRINSICALLY FOR FIREARMS.

I WOULDN'T SAY I HAVE DEEP HATE, BUT I'M VERY DISTANT FROM IT.

WE SEE THE HEADLINES AND A LOT OF US LIVE THE REALITY OF VARIOUS FORMS OF GUN VIOLENCE, SO, IT'S BEEN LARGELY A NEGATIVE IDEA OUTSIDE OF SOME FUN WITH SOME ACTION MOVIES, WATCHING, NOT STARRING IN.

SO, TO BE IN ARKANSAS, TO BE WITH AN OLYMPIAN, FOR WHOM THIS IS A SPORT, CONVERSATIONISTS, A FAMILY RITUAL AND TRADITION -- WE GOT TO SPEND TIME -- THIS IS THE HEART OF THE SHOW, MOMENTS LIKE THIS, WHERE PEOPLE WHO CLEARLY COME FROM SOME DIFFERENT POLITICAL, SOCIAL PERSPECTIVES, CAN SHARE ACTUAL COMMON GROUND.

WE'RE STANDING ON THE SAME EARTH.

WE'RE ON THE SAME PLOT OF LAND.

AND WE'RE IN RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH OTHER BECAUSE WE'RE ALSO IN RELATIONSHIP WITH NATURE.

AND IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, THAT'S LIKE A SAFE CONTAINER TO HAVE THOUGHTFUL EXCHANGES, AND ONES THAT GET WELL BEYOND THE TALKING POINTS.

SO, I LEARNED SOMETHING IN THAT EXCHANGE.

THE PEOPLE I WAS SHOOTING WITH LEARNED SOMETHING IN THAT EXCHANGED.

AND I THINK WE WERE, BOTH SIDES, NOT ON A SEPARATE SIDE, NECESSARILY, WEER WITH WERE HUMAN TOGETHER, WE WERE AMERICANS TOGETHER, AND I MIGHT ADD, I WAS SHOOTING PRETTY GOOD, WHICH HELPED.

>> YEAH, SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME WAS ALSO THAT YOU SHARED THAT HISTORY ABOUT YOUR FATHER TO THE CAMERA, TO THE AUDIENCE.

WHY WAS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> I LOVE BREAKING EXPECTATION.

AND I LOVE THE IDEA OF TAKING WHAT COULD BE A SHOW ABOUT NATURE AND MAKING IT A SHOW ABOUT PEOPLE.

THIS IS -- THIS IS AMERICA, LONG PAUSE, OUTDOORS.

AND WHEN WE INVEST IN THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH NATURE AND WITH EACH OTHER, ON THAT SHARED FOUNDATION OF NATURE, WE CAN FIND A BIT MORE AMERICA.

WE CAN FIND A BIT MORE IN COMMON.

WE'RE STILL GOING TO BE DISAGREEING, BUT FOR ME TO SHARE THAT PART OF MYSELF FELT VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IT HELPS ME CONNECT WITH THE PEOPLE I'M IN THE FIELD WITH, AND ULTIMATELY, THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T GET TO TRAVEL AROUND TO ALL THESE STATES WITH ALL THESE RESOURCES AND ALL THIS SAFETY LIKE I DO.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A REALLY PRIVILEGED POSITION TO BE ABLE TO DROP INTO SOME OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL, MOST ANCIENT, MOST INDIGENOUS, MOST JOYFUL, MOST REGENERATIVE, LIKE, ALL KINDS OF SCENES THAT I'VE BEEN ABLE TO BE APART OF, COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE LET ME IN WITH TRUST.

SO, THEY'RE GOING TO TRUST SOMETHING WITH ME, I'M GOING TO TRUST, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING WITH THEM, AND WE'RE TRUSTING OURSELVES IN THAT CASE.

>> YOU WERE SLEEPING OUT UNDER THE STARS ONE NIGHT, WAITING FOR THE SUN TO RISE, IN, IT LOOKS LIKE, A SPECTACULAR SETTING.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS MOMENT, THESE MOMENTS THAT YOU HAD IN NEW MEXICO.

>> YO, NEW MEXICO IS SO MUCH MORE THAN I THOUGHT IT WAS.

A LOT OF THIS SHOW IS JUST ME SAYING, "WHOA," LIKE, A LOT.

IT WAS IN A PLACE CALLED CHACO CANYON, THIS IS A VERY OLD PLACE THAT WAS OCCUPIED BY PEOPLE WHO WERE HERE BEFORE THE EUROPEAN COLONIZERS ARRIVED.

AND THEY DESIGNED THEIR CITY IN THIS REGION IN PERFECT ALIGNMENT WITH THE STARS.

THEY WERE ATTUNED TO THE UNIVERSE.

AND I REFLECTED IN NEW MEXICO, TIME MEANS SOMETHING.

IT'S A VERY OLD, OLD PLACE.

WE THINK OF AMERICA AS A YOUNG COUNTRY, AND IT IS A YOUNG CONSTRUCT, BUT IT'S OLD LAND.

AND THERE'S PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HERE FOR FAR LONGER THAN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL MODERN VERSION WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE.

SO, TO SIT AROUND THE STARS, TO LOOK UP AT THE MILKY WAY, THAT WE'RE ALSO INSIDE OF, IS MIND-BLOWING.

HUMBLING.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN, I THINK THE EPISODE IN OREGON, WHERE YOU WERE LITERALLY CLIMBING UP A TREE ON A ROPE WITH AN EXPERT, AND YOU HAD AN INTENSE MOMENT, AND THEN YOU KIND OF LET THE CAMERA AND THE AUDIENCE IN ON IT WHEN YOU GOT BACK DOWN.

AND THAT WAS KIND OF AN EVEN BIGGER MOMENT FOR PEOPLE WATCHING THE SHOW.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT, AND WHY IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO JUST BE OPEN AND HONEST AT THAT MOMENT?

>> YEAH.

IT CAN BE -- IT WOULD BE EASY TO MAKE A POSTCARD SHOW, WHERE WE CELEBRATE NATURAL FEATURES AND BEAUTIFUL ANIMALS AND MAJESTIC CREATURES.

IT WOULD BE EASY TO MAKE A CELEBRATORY SHOW, WHERE EVERYTHING ABOUT THE OUTDOORS IS GREAT.

NATURE'S GREAT, CAMPING IS GREAT, CAMPFIRE, IT'S ALL JUST WONDERFUL.

BUT IT WOULD NOT BE A TRUE SHOW.

AND THE TRUTH IS, THERE'S MORE TO NATURE THAN LANDSCAPES, AND ANIMALS, WE'RE PART OF IT.

NATURE SOMETIMES HURTS.

IT HURTS.

IT'S BEEN USED TO HURT.

AND SO, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD ACCIDENTS IN NATURE.

TAKEN TERRIBLE FALLS, BROKEN PARTS OF THEMSELVES OR THEIR EYE DENTTIES.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FORCED TO WORK AND FORTUNED AND MURDERED AND SLAUGHTERED IN NATURE.

THAT'S THE HISTORY OF A BIG GROUP OF US IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO, TO JUST BE LIKE, YEAH, LET'S GO OUT TO THE FOREST, I MEAN, THE FOREST IS THE SCENE OF THE CRIME, AS WELL.

AND THE EXCLUSION THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THE OUTDOORS CAN MAKE IT A TROUBLING, UNSAFE, UNWELCOME, NONJOYFUL PLACE.

I WAS CLIMBING THIS TREE, IT'S 80 FOOT TALL MAPLE.

WHEN YOU CLIMB A TREE THAT BIG, YOU ARE NOT CLIMBING THE TREE, YOU ARE CLIMBING A ROPE PARALLEL TO THE TREE THAT'S LOOPED ON A HIGH BRANCH.

AND I WAS WITH THIS BEAUTIFUL MAN, AND HE REALLY HELD A GREAT SPACE FOR ME, BECAUSE ABOUT HALFWAY UP, I JUST HAD TO STOP.

AND IT WASN'T MERELY THE HEIGHT.

THE HEIGHTS HAD A LITTLE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT, THAT WAS HIGHER THAN I HAD EVER CLIMBED ANYTHING, BUT MORE THAN THAT, IT WAS KIND OF MEMORY AND A RECOGNITION OF THE SETTING.

OF BEING A BLACK AMERICAN, BEING A BLACK MAN, IN A TREE, WITH A ROPE, AND NOT WANTING TO GO ANY FURTHER.

JUST ACKNOWLEDGING HISTORY, PAIN, TRAUMA, AND REALLY FEELING IT.

AND I WASN'T ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT AS IT HAPPENED, I JUST THOUGHT, I'M TIRED, I'M HURTING, THERE'S SOME EMOTIONAL BLOCK, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, BUT I'M NOT PUSHING MYSELF BEYOND THIS POINT.

SO, WHAT I END UP SHARING IN THIS EPISODE, AND PEOPLE SHOULD REALLY WATCH THIS, I WON'T REPEAT IT, BECAUSE IT WAS FOR THE MOMENT, I -- I SHARED WITH YOU EVERYTHING I WAS FEELING AND GOING THROUGH.

AND THAT FELT IMPORTANT TO DO.

>> SO, DUSTIN, THE MAN YOU WERE WITH IN THAT TREE.

WHEN YOU STARTED WALKING AROUND IN THE FOREST, WHAT WAS INTERESTING WAS THAT YOU STARTLED TO SEE THE OUTDOORS AS A PLACE FOR HEALING.

AND IT'S KIND OF A THROUGH LINE THAT I SAW IN SO MANY DIFFERENT EPISODES THAT YOU HAD, WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, TEACHING FOSTER CHILDREN HOW TO FLY FISH IN A STREAM, OR IT'S, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DEALING WITH SUBSTANCE ABUSE ISSUES SNOWSHOEING IN MAINE, OR YOU AND THE OTHER FOLKS THAT WERE JUST LITERALLY INHALING THE FOREST, THAT THERE IS KIND OF A -- AND IT'S BEEN SOMETHING THAT CIVILIZATIONS AND SOCIETIES HAVE KNOWN FOR SO LONG, THAT THERE IS A HEALING CAPACITY TO NATURE, BUT TO ACTUALLY SEE IT AT WORK IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

>> WE KNOW SO MUCH ALREADY, OUR INTUITION IS PRETTY GOOD, BUT WE FORGET.

AND SO, THIS SHOW HAS HELPED ME REMEMBER THINGS I'VE KNOWN AND HELPED ME FIND PEOPLE WHO HAVE REMEMBERED THINGS THEY'VE KNOWN, IS THAT NATURE CAN BE VERY HEALING.

LOUIE, I WAS WITH THIS BROTHER IN NEW MEXICO, RAFTING DOWN THE RIO GRANDE, HE'S POINTING OUT THE FEATURES OF NATURE, HE'S LIKE, IT'S MY PANTRY, IT'S MY ALTAR, IT'S MY CLASSROOM.

IT'S MY MEDICINE CABINET.

HE'S NOT SEEING TREES JUST AS TREES, HE'S SEEING HOW WE RELATE TO THEM AND WHAT THEY OFFER US.

YOU KNOW, WHICH IS TO BREATHE ON OUR BEHALF, BEYOND THE LUNGS IN OUR OWN BODIES.

AND SO, TO TAP INTO THE HEALING POWER OF NATURE, WHETHER IT'S A COLD PLUNGE IN MAINE, OR THE FOREST BATHING IN OREGON, OR THE COLLECTIVE TRAUMA WE EXPLORED IN THE ARKANSAS EPISODE AROUND THE SITE OF A VERY LARGE RACE MASSACRE IN U.S. HISTORY, BUT THE WAY THAT TOWN HAS TRIED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH ITS CURRENT LEADERSHIP, IS TO USE ACCESS TO NATURE TO WRITE A DIFFERENT STORY.

>> YOU KNOW, I -- I HAD NO IDEA UNTIL I WATCHED THE EPISODE ABOUT A RACE MASSACRE IN ELAINE, ARKANSAS.

I MEAN, IT JUST REALLY NEVER SHOWED UP IN ANY OF MY HISTORY BOOKS.

TALK ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION WITH THE MAYOR.

>> WE MADE A VERY SNEAKY SHOW, HARI, YOU KNOW?

COME WATCH OUR NATURE SHOW, AND THEN GET HIT WITH INDIGENOUS LAND RIGHTS AND INCIDENTS THAT ARE NOT DOCUMENTED IN FORM AM EDUCATION ABOUT RACE MASSACRES, THE FOSTER CHILD SYSTEM, BECAUSE IT'S JUST PEOPLE.

AND SO, PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP THIS LAND IS A TRAUMATIC ONE.

AND IT IS HARD LITTLE CLEARER THAN IN A PLACE LIKE ELAINE, ARKANSAS, WHICH, IN THE SUMMER OF 1919 WAS THE PLACE OF ONE OF MANY RACE MASSACRES.

LET ME BE CLEAR WHEN I SAY RACE MASSACRE, I MEAN, WHITE AMERICANS DESCENDING ON BLACK COMMUNITIES AND DESTROYING THE PROPERTY AND MURDERING THE PEOPLE.

TULSA IS ONE OF THE MORE FAMOUS ONES.

AND WHAT HAPPENED IN ELAINE WAS LITERALLY AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE GREATER IN TERMS OF NUMBER OF PEOPLE KILLED.

I HAD NEVER HEARD OF IT.

AND RACE IS MY WHOLE THING.

I WROTE A BOOK CALLED "HOW TO BE BLACK."

I NEVER HEARD ABOUT THIS PART OF THE STORY UNTIL MAKING A NATURE SHOW.

AND SO, THAT HISTORY WAS BURIED PURPOSEFULLY, DEFLECTED PURPOSEFULLY.

THE MAYOR, FIRST BLACK MAYOR, FIRST WOMAN MAYOR, SHE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT.

>> I ONLY LEARNED ABOUT IT 15 YEARS AGO.

AND I ONLY LEARNED ABOUT IT WHEN RESEARCHING A LOT, AND CAME HOME, ASKED MY GRANDMOTHER ABOUT IT.

>> YEAH.

>> AND SHE CONFIRMED THE STORIES WERE TRUE, AND I SPENT THE NEXT FIVE TO SIX YEARS GETTING THOSE STORIES OUT OF HERE ABOUT THE ELAINE MASSACRE.

>> SO, SHE'S TAKEN THE OPPORTUNITY THAT HAS COME WITH HER OWN STATUS AS MAYOR, WITH HER OWN STATUS AS A DESCENDANT OF THE VICTIMS OF THIS MASSACRE, AND WITH THE STATUS AS ELAINE SITTING ON THE DELTA HERITAGE TRAIL, THIS RAILS TO TRAIL BIKE PATH.

>> YOU KNOW, I GREW UP, I WAS FORTUNATE TO GROW UP, PROBABLY MIDDLE SCHOOL, HIGH SCHOOL, CAMPING AND BACKPACKING IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST, AND IT DEFINITELY CHANGED MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE OUTDOORS.

ONE OF THE THINGS I STILL REMEMBER VIVIDLY WAS THAT THERE JUST WEREN'T THAT MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR OUT THERE.

MUCH LESS ON CAMERA, HOSTING PROGRAMS ABOUT THE OUTDOORS.

BUT I WONDER HOW YOU HAVE NAVIGATED THESE SPACES WHERE YOU MIGHT NOT BE WHO SOMEBODY EXPECTS WHEN THEY GET A CALL, HEY, THERE'S A PROGRAM OUT, THIS HOST IS GOING TO COME OUT TO YOU.

>> I NAVIGATE IT WITH JOY.

AND WITH CURIOSITY.

I GREW UP WITH A GOOD AMOUNT OF OUTDOOR ACCESS, AND I WAS WITH MY MOTHER, YOU KNOW, THE ONLY TWO BROWN FOLK IN SOME NECK OF THE WOODS, LIKE, LITERALLY, SOME NECK OF THE WOODS, AND IT'S JUST US AND MAYBE MY FRIEND REGGIE, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER ELSE IS GOING CAMPING WITH US, SO, I AM -- IT'S FAMILIAR TO FEEL UNFAMILIAR IN THESE SPACES.

I FOUND THAT AS WE'VE MADE THE SHOW, ESPECIALLY THE MORE WE'VE MADE THE SHOW, FOLKS HAVE A SENSE OF WHO I AM, AND WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO WITH THE SHOW, WITH PUBLIC MEDIA, THIS IS ALL OF OUR SHOW, TO SOME DEGREE, WE'RE TRYING TO REFLECT US BACK TO US IN A BEAUTIFUL, RESPECTFUL AND INTERESTING WAY.

AND SO, I FELT WELCOMED BY EVERYBODY WHO WE'VE HAD ON THE SHOW.

AS WE MOVE THROUGH SOME OF THESE SPACES, FOLKS WHO ARE NOT PART OF THE SHOW, THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS THE MOST WELCOMING.

THAT'S HUMANS, THAT'S PEOPLE.

THERE ARE FOLKS THAT WANT TO TAKE ISSUE AND MAKE SOME ASSUMPTIONS.

I'VE HAD THE BENEFIT BEING ABLE TO TRAVEL WITH OTHERS, AND SO, YOU KNOW, TO BE ONE OF THE FEW, OR, THE ONLY, DOES SOMETIMES COME WITH ACTUAL RISK, PHYSICAL RISK.

I'VE BEEN ABLE TO BE SHIELDED FROM SOME OF THE NEGATIVES OF THAT.

I'VE DEFINITELY ENJOYED THE BENEFIT OF MULTIPLE TYPES OF PEOPLE'S OPEN MINDS, AND I'VE GOTTEN A RESPECT FOR THE FOLKS THAT DON'T GET TO TRAVEL WITH A FILM CREW, AND HAVE SOME CHALLENGES THAT ARE NOT OF THEIR OWN MAKING, BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, HAVE SOME INSECURITY ABOUT THEIR IDENTITY.

>> THE SHOW IS CALLED "AMERICA OUTDOORS," ON PBS STATIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS.

BARATUNDE, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THE NEW SERIES.

>>> NOW, MAKE SURE TO TUNE IN TOMORROW NIGHT FOR MY CONVERSATION WITH AUTHOR FRANKLIN FORD ABOUT HIS EAGERLY ANTICIPATED THE NEW BOOK "THE LAST POLITICIAN," TAKES US INSIDE THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF BIDEN'S PRESIDENCY.

HE TELLS ME THE PRESIDENT IS A CREATURE OF COMEBACKS, AND ALWAYS EXCEEDS EXPECTATIONS.

THAT'S TOMORROW NIGHT.

>>> AND REMEMBER, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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